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Original: 6/18/2009 2:55 AM
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Thursday, June 18, 2009

Open letter to pre trib futurists.

 

Someone who subscribes to my site, did a post a couple days ago, where he had an open letter he wrote, to the leaders of his denomination. I am going to take the same approach, but my letter is written to those who believe the pre trib futurist viewpoint.

I went to a church in Vermont, and the pastor, was post-trib and the sunday school teacher for the class that I went to, was pre-trib futurist. He said that he was shocked when the pastor made a post-trib comment in a sermon. He (the sunday school teacher) could not believe that anyone would believe that a loving God, would make his children go through the tribulation. That comment, was filed away in my brain, and I would pull it out every now and then, and look at it. So the following, is a letter to the people who agree with the sunday school teacher, that a loving God, would not make his children, (christians) live through the tribulation. If this is not your particular viewpoint, then the letter is not addressed to you. the same thing applies, if you are a pre trib futurist, but disagree with the sunday school teacher, that the pre trib futurist position is correct, because a loving God, would never let his children live through the tribulation. :)

Dear Pre Trib Futurist,

So, you believe that a loving God would simply not let his children, live through something as horrible as the tribulation. I am not a futurist myself, but if I were, I would have to be a post trib futurist, it seems to me to be against the Bible, for God to simply come down from Heaven, and take his children home, while everyone else suffers. Here is why.

During the ten plagues on Egypt, God allowed the Children Of Israel, to suffer through some of the plagues that he sent. All of the water was turned to blood, and all of the land of Egypt was covered in frogs to name two. If God is in the habit of rescuing his people from tribulation, why did he not protect them from these plagues?

Elijah, David, Jeremiah, Ezekiel, Daniel, Elisha, Esther, Abraham, Joshua, Moses, and a few other people, went through various times of trial in the Old Testament. Some of it directly caused by God himself,  like when he asked Abraham to sacrifice Isaac, the child of promise.  If God is going to protect Christians from the tribulation, why did he not protect these people from trials and tribulation?

Jesus in the book of Matthew, 5th chapter, verses 10-12 talks about how we are blessed when persecuted. The apostle John, in the 15th chapter, verse 18 of the gospel named after him, records Jesus as saying that the world will hate us. Two verses later, Jesus declares that Christians will be persecuted.

Acts 5:40 records what I believe is the first recorded instance of Christians being persecuted. It says that the early apostles were beaten and told not to speak in the name of Jesus.

In, Matthew 10:23 Jesus tells his disciples that when they are persecuted in one town, they were to flee to another.

Let's face it, out of 15 apostles 13 of them died for the gospel.  John, died of old age, after he wrote the book of Revelation. the other apostle, not to die for the gospel was of course Judas. 13 out of 15 is not a very good track record.

John who as I just said, did not die for his faith, was still boiled alive in oil.

James (brother of John) was put to death by the sword.

Matthew according to legend, died in Ethopia of a sword wound.

Bartholomew aka Nathanael, was flayed to death by the whip

Andrew was whipped by seven soldiers, then tied to an X shaped cross, where he proceeded to witness to his guards for two days before he died.

Thomas was stabbed to death by a spear in India

Matthias (Judas' replacement) was stoned and then beheaded to make sure he was dead.

Paul was tortured and then beheaded by Nero.

Peter was crucified upside down

James the brother of Jesus,  while not an apostle, still died for his faith, when he was thrown from the pinnacle of the temple, according to legend, he survived the fall, so they beat him to death with clubs.

Millions of Christians, have died throughout the ages since the death of those who knew Jesus. If persecution and trial, and death were good enough for them, why should we escape what was promised to us in the New Testament? If these are the end times, why should Christians, now escape the "tribulation"? why are we so special, that Jesus would return and rescue us? The Bible says that God is the same yesterday, today, and tomorrow. If God promised us persecution, and let those who gone before us be persecuted. Why would he stop us from being persecuted? There are verses in the NT, that talk about persecution  being useful in bringing forth good virtues. Why would God, skip a tool to teach us? Persecution may not be a pleasent thing to go through at the time. But persecution does tend to lead to a deeper faith, a good demonstration of the fruit of the Holy Spirit, not to mention a good harvest of souls. I think that if God were to take us out before the tribulation, we would miss a lot of opportunity for growth.

 

 

 Posted 6/18/2009 2:55 AM - 79 Views - 8 eProps - 8 comments

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amen

Posted 6/18/2009 9:32 AM by Kristenmomof3 Xanga True Member Xanga Lifetime Member - reply

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I dont argue millenialism as a general rule as I see it as a secondary doctrine. That said, your post reminded me of a conversation I had with a relative of mine who published a pre-mil study guide. When we were discussing millenialism he shared with me his great concern that people were drawn to its escapist features and that there seemed to be a marked trend where people were less concerned about performing the function of the church , but rather focused on being personally being saved from a tribulation.

Posted 6/18/2009 9:48 AM by ProvokingThought Xanga True Member Xanga Lifetime Member - reply

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Off the top of my head, I can't remember any place where it says that the Israelites were subjected to the same plagues God sent upon the Egyptians- so I'm afraid you'll have to back that one up before I'll accept it.

The second problem in your letter is that you are lumping the persecution of man together with the wrath of God. Most of the plagues that occur in Revelations are considered be "the wrath of God" (not persecution) and in Romans 1:18, it is clearly stated that the wrath of God is meant for the unrighteous. How then can you say that God's wrath will be poured out upon the righteous as well as the unrighteous?

Posted 6/18/2009 9:56 AM by Lynnjynh9315 - reply

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This is one of the few times you & I have ever (or likely will ever) agreed on anything relating to this topic

Posted 6/18/2009 10:41 AM by radicalramblings Xanga True Member Xanga Lifetime Member - reply

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@Lynnjynh9315 - You might have just opened a can of worms debating this topic with me around.  Just ask PTBACF, he knows what happens when you get me started

"Off the top of my head, I can't remember any place where it says that the Israelites were subjected to the same plagues God sent upon the Egyptians- so I'm afraid you'll have to back that one up before I'll accept it."

I think you're looking at this a bit backwards.  Nothing in Scripture says they were *not* subjected to the same plagues.  When the water turned to blood, it doesn't say "but the Israelites could still drink it."   When the plague of frogs came, it doesn't say, "but the Israelites couldn't see them." When the dust turned to lice and people and animals were infested, it doesn't say "Only the Egyptians were infested."  Nope, that's not in Scripture.  Get the picture?  They were subjected to the same plagues.  Interestingly, some of the Scriptures about some of the plagues *do* say that the Israelites were spared from the worst direct effects of them, indicating that those plagues which do not carry this distinction affected them equally with the Egyptians.

"The second problem in your letter is that you are lumping the persecution of man together with the wrath of God. Most of the plagues that occur in Revelations are considered be "the wrath of God" (not persecution) and in Romans 1:18, it is clearly stated that the wrath of God is meant for the unrighteous."

Not exactly.  The seven seal judgments and the seven bowl judgments listed in Revelation, that are poured out by the seven angels of God, are God's wrath.  But the persecution of the Saints (those who follow God's will), by the beast and by the antichrist and by the false prophet, are certainly not the wrath of God.  Further, this persecution is specifically targeting those who do follow God, indicating that they have not been magically raptured out of harm's way.

Posted 6/18/2009 11:39 AM by radicalramblings Xanga True Member Xanga Lifetime Member - reply

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@radicalramblings - My mother believes in a mid-trib rapture, and she know sooo much more about this topic than I do. But from what I've heard her rattle off, you are correct in saying that not all the plagues listed in the End Times are God's wrath... but quite a few of them are. If I remember correctly (and don't hold me to this) the most severe plagues begin mid-way through the End Times, which would likely add credance to a mid-trib rapture theory.

Posted 6/18/2009 11:45 AM by Lynnjynh9315 - reply

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@Lynnjynh9315 -  Exodus 8:22-23


22But on that day I will set apart the land of Goshen, where my people dwell, so that no swarms of flies shall be there, that you may know that I am the LORD in the midst of the earth. 23Thus I will put a division between my people and your people. Tomorrow this sign shall happen."


If God on that day, set aside the land of Goshen where his people dwell, than for the previous 3 plagues, there was no division. This is where I get the belief that the Children of Israel suffered those previous plagues.


You brought up Romans 1:18 which does say that the wrath of God is revealed against all unrighteousness.  But it does not say anything about the righteous. It does not say that they are spared from, nor does it say that they suffer, because they just happened to have been in the way when God punished the unrighteous. So you can't use that verse to say that it is only for the unrighteous, as the righteous are not mentioned in that verse. You need a better verse to prove what you want to prove.

Posted 6/18/2009 11:46 AM by ProudToBeAChristianFruitcake Xanga True Member - reply

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@Lynnjynh9315 - But, the harshest persecutions by the beast and the false prophet, do not come until after the majority of the plagues.  Since these persecutions are aimed at those who follow Christ, it stands to reason that they could not have been raptured yet at that point.  Furthermore, there are many Scriptures which speak of Christians being saved "out of" the tribulation (indicating that you must be IN something in order to come OUT of it), of signs and wonders preceding the end of the world (which parallel the plagues and judgments of Revelation) and "then" Christ appearing in the sky, of the need to endure to the end through all persecution, etc.  I can give you specific references if you really want to continue this discussion later, when I have my Bible with all of my notes & highlights in it  - or you can go over to biblegateway.com and look up Matt. 24 for starters, and the verses commonly cross-referenced to it.

@ProudToBeAChristianFruitcake - Are we actually arguing the same side of a rapture debate?  Someone pinch me

Posted 6/18/2009 12:06 PM by radicalramblings Xanga True Member Xanga Lifetime Member - reply


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